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2002 Dear VTwin Mama, Dear Barbara, The underlying thinking in pack riding is that once the pack splits, largely due to stops, is that it is easier for cars to get sandwiched between riders making for a truly unsafe riding environment. The drivers get nervous, the bikers get impatient -- voila -- the perfect setup for an ouch. So, hang out at the back and you'll have your decision making control back again! – Mama (basically another goodie goodie, but if you tell anyone I'll categorically deny it!) Wednesday, January 23 Dear VTwin Mama, Dear Sharon, Friday, January 25 Dear VTwin Mama, What my husband and I have started to do is ride at the back of the pack, that way there's no pressure on us to make a stupid decision. You have to do what you feel is right. Ride your own ride, don't let anyone else dictate what you should or shouldn't do! Ride safe and ride longer!– New Rider in New England (although she's rapidly becoming New England Rider!) Dear NR in NE (NER), Monday, January 28 Dear VTwin Mama, Yeah I have seen this situation too. You know if you ride with a group, that would be enough bikes like 10 or more, I have heard and been in a group where someone will either direct traffic at the intersections or I have also been on rides when we ALL STOPPED at the stop signs. I would not want to ruin my very clean driving record for any reason. Or get into an accident. Remember what they taught us in motorcycle class. DRIVE DEFENSIVELY. Always keep in my mind you are a smaller object then a car. A lot smaller then a 18 wheeler. And I WOULD NEVER STAY IN BACK OF THE LINE JUST BECAUSE I STOP AT STOP SIGNS, THIS MAY HELP THE OTHER RIDERS OBEY THE LAW TOO.... How long does it actually take to stop, look and proceed? You only get ONE LIFE, you might want to take care of your life and stop at those signs...Group or no group of riders, you are asking for trouble....Yeah, this got my dander up -- I am a stickler when it comes to stuff like this. Those stop signs are there for a reason, it is to control an intersection, new rider or not, OBEY THE LAW..... Just My Opinion – Jo Ann I am writing in response to Barbara K.'s question/comment about stopping or rather not stopping at a stop sign. I am a new rider and have also been faced with this dilemma when riding in a small group (6 - 7). In my situation, we were a small enough group to stay very close together and all roll thru the stop at once. We were on a not so busy back road at the time and there were few cars around. Please don't think I was 100% OK or comfortable with this but I had no choice at the time but to roll with the group. (No pun intended there.) There was also another new rider with us and she has a difficult time stopping so for her it was a benefit. I am just now joining WOW - Women on Wheels and I will interested to see how the Chapter I will be a member of handles this situation. I plan to ask at another meeting we are attending this weekend for a different ride group. I will update everyone with their answer. I checked the "Rules of the Road" for that particular group and stop signs are not in there. I know that the police do stop traffic for special rides and then I have no problem cruising on thru - but otherwise I get nervous. Heck, I get nervous going through an intersection when I have the green light. As always, I'm glad to know I'm not the only one out there who feels this way. Thanks Barbara. – Laura L. Dear Jo Ann and Laura, Let's see if we get some more input from both experienced and inexperienced riders on this subject. – Mama Wednesday, February 6 Dear VTwin Mama, Dear Laura, Dear VTwin Mama, Dear Bette, Monday, September 9 Dear VTwin Mama, Our first experience was in PA (north central) and it was a Dice Run. This is similar to the poker run except that at each stop you shake a closed jar (expect it could be open as well & dumped out) and get the score on the dice. The highest score at the end is the winner (and there is always the lowest score). Most runs are for charity, but some are for the clubs sponsoring them so be sure to check that out. – Donna aka FrogBiker (note from Mama: good point on noting the exact reason for the run -- these can be pricey sometimes depending on what the event is all about -- and you simply want to understand how your money is being used.) Thursday, September 12 Dear VTwin Mama, The route took us out and around Milwaukee suburbs so the scenery was nice. I was worried we'd be in town for the whole thing. Instead we wound through tree-lined twisties and turnies and past acres and acres of farmland. -sigh- The route took us to five bars where we drew one card at each bar. The last bar allowed us to buy up to three additional cards for one dollar each. The best three hands were selected and received cash prizes (I was thrilled to get second best hand! and I've always said I'm lousy at card games!) and the rest were picked at random for door prizes. All in all it was a great day. The sun shone. Temperatures were in the low 90's with relatively low humidity. Strange, since the Knights usually get rained on for their events here! I have to admit I really wasn't that thrilled that each stop was a bar. My hubby and I stuck to coke and water but I was disappointed in the number of attendees who drank alcohol. Okay, I know this isn't a perfect world and lots of people drink and drive, but a drink or two at each bar then many more at the last one make me more than a little nervous! When my husband's chapter hosted a Run they included a jewelry store as one of the stops. The store even donated a custom garnet and gold ring for a silent auction. I'm curious about others' experiences on Poker Runs or the like. I'd like to think not everyone ends up at bars. It would be nice to offer alternate ideas for next year's ride. I do have a question though about riding in groups. Like I said before we had a group of 12 bikes and sometimes it's hard to keep the group together. When you come to a stop sign at a four way stop would the group just ride through together - assuming none of the other vehicles start moving from their stops? Many of our group, myself included, went through them together while others stopped for the sign. At times during the ride I would be behind the one who stopped, breaking up the group, and looking at the other stopped vehicles they seemed to be a little confused. Just wanted another view on this. Thanks for any and all input! – Jennifer aka Sabre-Girl Dear Jennifer, Events that have their pit-stops at bars, or pleasures rides with friends that go from Point A to B to C etc. which are bars, is a time-honored tradition. I think it has to do the open atmosphere, seating, there is music, ability to talk loud and proud, etc. Unfortunately, our culture use to show drinking as a "regular adult" thing you do -- and despite the many warnings about drinking and the road, we still persist in this. Kudos to you and hubby for choosing a non-alcoholic beverage and sticking to it. The solution to pack riding when alcohol is involved? That's tricky. I'd personally ride at the back of the pack and keep my distance. If any of the other riders mentioned something, I'd simply let them know that I don't think drinking and riding are safe and that they should respect my desire to ride safe. If these riders can't accept this, I hate to say it, but find new people to ride with. Or organize a ride yourself without bar stops (maybe as an alternative -- local drive up burger joints or Dairy Queens -- to show the group that you CAN have fun without alcohol. Remember, sometimes these bar-to-bar rides are just a matter of habit -- someone needs to take the initiative to do it differently! As to the group coming up to a stop sign, we had a lengthy discussion of that early this year, so check Barbara's original question and the follow-up in the Riding Techniques, Group Riding page. – Mama Thursday, October 3 Dear VTwin Mama, Dear Rebel 3, Thursday, May 29 Dear VTwin Mama, Dear Lorraine, Side-by-side riding in the same lane is usually only done "in town." When a group comes to a stop and plans to make a turn, the two lead people who are side-by-side begin the turn together while strictly maintaining their lane position. Sometimes one will "gun" ahead a little of the other, but still must maintain exact position in the lane so as to not goof up the other side partner. Very experienced riders will sometimes cruise at high speeds side-by-side, but truly this is for the very experienced only, and even then it's not recommended for any real length of time (maybe to catch up in order to signal someone or something similar). New riders should never ride side-by-side. Not until they can maintain their left or right position in a single lane without crossing into the other portion of the lane, no matter what they are doing. For more info on all sorts of riding situations, etc., you might want to consider purchasing a copy of Proficient Motorcycling -- an excellent book that covers tons of stuff like this. Check out my Books/Mag page for places to buy (like Amazon, etc.). – Mama Share Your ThoughtsTop Thursday, August 7 Dear
VTwin Mama, I have watched videos on street skills and on group riding, and feel confident that I have the ability to do well on the ride, however that little voice keeps on getting louder in my head.....all the what ifs since I do not know how these people ride. I do well solo, I panic when I have to look out for every one on group rides that are surrounding me. I had a bad group ride experience -- over 200 people that were not organized at all. I want to give this a chance to be an awesome ride and most of my friends have told me to ride in the back so that I won't feel as if they are trying to run me over and I can keep my pace where I want it. I am assuming that the others will feel the same way about riding in the rear, so I will be fighting for position so to speak. Am I being silly....how do I overcome this and allow these people a chance to prove me wrong? I do not want to venture out with a bad frame of mind. Also, any tips on toll roads and bridges up north around the NY area? Sincerely, – Charlene, Group Panic Attack Dear
Charlene, 1) The first thing you want to do is organize the ride.
This can be as informal as standing around in a parking lot, or as
complicated as a special meeting to hand out maps and cellphone numbers. Now, with all that done and said, does your upcoming group ride already have a designated leader? If so, consider contacting them in advance, letting them know your concerns -- and just be honest about your last experience as the reason you would like to pre-discuss the ride. If not, then definitely talk with ride leader(s) before the ride begins -- discuss the points above and figure out what their "rules" are so you know what the protocol is. That way there are a minimum of surprises! If the group expresses surprise in your concerns, remember that they may have ridden as a group many times before and that they already "know" between them how they will be riding. Gently point out that you're newer to group rides and would benefit from learning from them. This should flatter them enough to take the time to review their own style of group riding as compared to the above guidelines. As my hero Ann Landers use to point out -- nobody can take advantage of you unless you let them -- so be firm in getting the ground rules established. After all, 1000 miles is nothing to sneeze at -- and your comfort and safety are important, and should be important to the group as well. – Mama Dear
VTwin Mama, Dear
Donna, The problem with "rules" is that what works for a small group of six riders may not be practical for a group of 20. Same goes for coming up on heavier traffic, traffic obstacles (work zones), etc. In my experience, we never used the tailgunner as anything other to ensure the group was in tact and to assist with any problems. The lead always signaled a move, then riders followed in order when they deemed it was safe for them on an individual basis (but still maintaining the formation). The tendency in heavier traffic was to break up a bit, but ultimately the group regrouped and the drag (last rider) was able to signal the lead that all was well. Still, I can see your point on safety in this particular style of lane change. However, you are asking an existing group to modify their procedure, and while one would hope that they would be open to discussion on the subject, they may feel that as the "new kids" you're not in position to dictate to them. So, what are your options. 1) don't ride with the group if it really gives you the willies -- your safety always comes first 2) ride with the group under their ruling until such time you have built up the necessary camaraderie and proven your group riding skills to initiate a possible change sometime in the future 3) one of you lead a ride and the other act as tail and ask the group to try your lane change thought -- after all, you've put forth the effort to coordinate a really cool ride! – Mama Tuesday, October 28 For Donna who is concerned about correct lane changing in a group: I don't know where you are from, but your local Motorcycle Safety Program is probably the best source of information about how to pass (with a group of bikes) safely. I have attached the Missouri website (http://www.mmsp.org/) for your information. It sure helped me get prepared for large group riding. – Traci (note from Mama: thanks for the input!) Tuesday, April 20 Dear
VTwin Mama, Dear
HDRyder, As to the trip itself, I'd say, as long as the group is comfortable with making allowances for your needs (maybe more frequent stops so you don't fatigue and always having someone responsible for accounting for your "keep up ability and position in the group" and maybe readjusting speed/etc. for your ability level), then you've got a good riding group. Gauge how that weekend ride goes and then don't be afraid to say what you truly think you can handle. Pretending that you can manage that longer ride, when in fact you find that it might be too much, would be the mistake. Sit it out and practice some more until you're ready. If you find your comfort level is within your "good gut feeling," then go for it! Just never be afraid to say how you're actually doing! One more thing, click over to my Riding Techniques -- Group Riding page to read up on what you should know -- good postings and there's a link to a great article as well! – Mama Tuesday, June 1 Dear
VTwin Mama, I'd like to touch on something that I don't see discussed too often. I've been riding now for over 3 years. I've logged close to 20,000 miles on two different bikes - my first bike, a '96 Harley Sportster 883 (5k miles)...and my current bike, an '02 Harley Heritage Classic (15k miles). I absolutely LOVE to ride..it's a total stress-reliever for me. I have gained so much confidence in ALL aspects of my life as a result of learning to ride. Yet...there are *those* days..ya know, the kind of day where all forms of weirdness kind of creep up on you and take you by surprise. The day might start out "normal", but it doesn't take long to assess that things just aren't gellin' like they should. Suddenly everything seems to be an accident just waiting to happen. I'll use a recent group ride I participated in as an example. It was one of those charity rides...probably 100 bikes or so. Bikes took off in small groups so as not to tie up traffic much. My group consisted of about a dozen bikes. I was riding somewhere in the middle of the pack and at first, things seemed ok. But within a few miles, I started to get a really weird feeling...I can't explain it, just one of those gut feelings. I witnessed some things that I didn't like...inexperienced riders trying to "block" intersections, and other reckless behavior. I decided to pull out of line and hang towards the rear of the pack where I thought it was safer. Dang it if my gut wasn't right, because a bit later into that ride there was an accident involving 2 riders that were up near the front of the pack. There really isn't any point to my post...just wanted to share my thoughts on the subject. But I would be interested in hearing how some of the other readers here handle one of those creepy-go-with-your-gut kind of days. Thanks for listening! – LK Dear
LK, As to your specific example, group riding is tricky at best, especially with as large a group as you described. The moment you noticed that a few riders exhibited signs of not knowing the rules as you understand them, you did the right thing. What to do in the future?! Well, for group rides, it's imperative that the group leaders ascertain the skill levels and place riders correctly. This is an art form. Reviewing the ride and the rules of the ride before hand is another important component to a good, overall ride. In retrospect, do you feel that the leaders did this? So, let's see what other "creepy gut" feelings other readers share -- this should not only be fun, but informative! I think you brought up a really good point! – Mama Wednesday, August 4 Hello
again VTwin Mama, Dear
Chrome Broom, The biker hand wave is highly
individual and there is no right or wrong. In fact, a head nod is
considered highly acceptable, although is less visible and therefore can
be construed as stuck-up if the other rider misses it. Here’s a fun look
at the subject. I myself like a 45 degree angle down
with flat palm and all fingers extended. For kicks however, I often
utilize the “Queen’s wave” which is a real art form . . . scroll
down this page to the picture titled, “Royal Wave from the Train,”
and then imagine just twisting your hand at the wrist slightly left and
right. That’s the Queen’s Wave and is highly unnerving to the
uninitiated rider, but great for fresh rider reaction! Friday, May 20 Dear
VTwin Mama, So it began. Long story short, course taken (slow and scary....eek!) course passed. Fully legit. Bought bike. But, COULD I DO ANYTHING RIGHT? Krikey, NO!!!! Everything was wrong. Still is, even after one year of riding with hubby. Nobody else seems to have a problem with me but every time, after every ride, an issue occurs. He hates that I don't stay side by side with him. He hates that I don't do 140 kms. He hates that he feels he has to keep me in his mirrors and watch me all the time . . . it just keeps going on and on. And now I hate to go on rides with him because I HATE HOW MUCH HE HATES DOING THIS. I've taken the safety course and I refuse to ride side by side in perilous situations. Plus, I know that riding in formation is the best life security we could ever have. He's a Harley guy and things need to "look" right. This is really testing our marriage. I hope we can get over this - motorcycling is something he's been doing for years and I'm new. Yet, all I've been taught tells me he's just not riding right. What do I do now? We've been married 27 years. – scotka Dear
scotka, It's true that the most highly skilled riders will ride side-by-side at cruising speeds, but under no circumstances should a new rider do this. Even the best of riders know that the staggered formation is safest as it gives everyone more "outs" if something goes wrong. I have ridden with such experienced riders who would ride next to each other, while the less experienced would trail in stagger formation. When a group rides, it is the responsibility of the leader to keep his/her group in site at all times and for the tail gunner to assist any rider that drops back for whatever reason. So your training is spot on and don't you veer for any reason no matter how much yelling might happen. YOUR safety depends on it, and ultimately YOU are responsible for your own safety. Ok, but what to do? I'm thinking you need to temporarily separate your riding time from your husband's. It's time to find your own group to ride with. Your use of kms to describe speed tells me you're not in the U.S. most likely, so I'm going to point to the WIMA (Women's International Motorcycle Association) organization . . . women riders with representation worldwide. More women's riding groups are listed on my Women's Sites page. I realize that your husband may not be any more pleased with you peeling off on your own to join your own group, but the bottom line is, you want to ride. You've got a right to explore your own dreams and if he has his group, gosh darn it, you'll get your own too! The bottom line is that not everyone's riding style matches another's. Case in point . . . I dislike riding from Point A to Point B just to get there. I prefer to ride on back roads, going slowly, and absorb the beauty that Mother Nature lays before me. That's what I like. So, I steer clear of rides that are purely distance driven or challenges like the Iron Butt rides. I fully support riders who choose these types of rides, but know that they are not for me. I have the courage to say so and stick with it. Now it's time for you to do so as well. – Mama Dear
VTwin Mama, I know the guys felt like I rode like a girl, but. I am still alive to warn the sisters . . . RIDE YOUR OWN RIDE, no matter how inadequate it makes you feel. I told hubby, realize that I can ride till I die (another 40 yrs) and still won't have the experience the guys have. Most of us start after our kids are gone, and the guys start riding at 10yrs old. I guess my point is, I had enough cool to let cousin go on, in spite of my pride, and I hope the other sisters will do the same should the situation arise. You do your thing, and let them do theirs. Then you can write in and tell on them! haha Be safe sisters! – Sparkle Dear
Sparkle, On a side note, it's important to talk with co-riders upfront on the type of riding they expect to do on a long haul ride . . . too much mismatch will frustrate all . . . and then tension sets in and it's no fun (less experienced feel pressured and more experienced feel like they have to wait all the time). The time to discuss it is during the planning stages! I don't think you rode like a girl, I think you rode to match your skill level and that's soooo very sister smart! But rat away (!) . . . let's just remind ourselves that many riders prefer to enjoy the scenery rather than going as fast as possible and miss the portion where you get to drink in the beauty! Drinking in this case is acceptable! – Mama Wednesday, June 8 For Sparkle who wrote in about riding your own ride: I am always amazed at how I can come to this wonderful site and find someone who's experienced similar situations. I went on a nice ride this past weekend, thru the Arizona desert (before it gets too hot) and came away a bit disappointed in myself. I was so looking forward to the ride and taking some gentle curves, but found myself getting nervous and stiffened up on some of them. Not a good thing to do. I basically followed the posted speed recommendations, so didn't slow to a crawl, but like I said, I was disappointed in my response. Luckily, I was leading my husband, so didn't have the feeling of needing to keep up with someone, but I kinda felt badly for him that I was going slowly. Now I worry about being on a busier highway or freeway at higher speeds. I know . . . take it at my own pace!! Thanks for writing your story and recommendations . . . always nice to know we are not the only one . . . Also, Congratulations on your new bike Mama Petra!! Looks great!! – Annie B. in Phoenix (note from Mama: you took some of your first curves at posted speed . .. not too bad! Higher speeds on freeways . . . do that first on a Sunday morning without traffic, then work yourself up to integrating with more traffic. Consider taking the MSF's Experienced RiderCourse . . . it looks like they've removed their prerequisites for time/mileage, so why not check into it . . . traction, cornering and swerving is covered and it's a half day course!) I recently returned from a road trip over Memorial Day, went to Deals Gap in NC, home of the Tail of the Dragon. 318 curves in 11 miles. So when Sparkle mentioned hairpin turns and 10 mph, I had to chime in. It was busy there, had to be at least 200 or 300 bikers there, all types of bikes. I also felt like I wasn't keeping up with the guys. There were crotch rockets passing me by left and right. At one of the scenic stops, I mentioned this to my husband, that I felt like a beginner (I've been riding for many years). He pointed out that the sport bikes are meant to corner and go fast; my bike, a VStar, isn't. When we hit the road again, there were 4 or 5 Gold Wings in front of us, doing the same speed or slower than me. After seeing that, I realized that I was doing just fine (and the right speed for me). To me, the ultimate show of skill is driving the road without running the bike off the road and into a 30 foot ravine (which some guy did, took a corner too fast and lost control). And it's also coming home without laying my bike down and getting a wicked case of road rash (which I saw on several guys there, and their female passengers as well). Moral of the story: go as fast as you want boys, but I'll keep my bike vertical and the rubber side down. Keeping it safe out there, – Julie, official Dragon Slayer (note from Mama: there is always someone going faster than you, but as you note, why try to keep up with the Jones's (!) if you don't know where they are going! When I was a skydiver, way back when, I knew an excellent skydiver who could have done fancy landings spot on, but choose to land however it made sense. He said that he did that because it was more important to land safely so that he could go do it again! The happiest riders are those that ride their own ride! ) Thursday, June 30 For Julie, Official Dragon Slayer: I too have ridden the tail of the Dragon. Even though I live and ride in the mountains all the time, it is a very humbling experience. I have been riding for many years. Rode a 1948 Panhead for almost 20 years, this year bought a 2005 Ultra Classic HD. My husband and one of his friends get irritated with me for not keeping up. They go too fast for my comfort level. I personally ride for pleasure, not speed. Every time we go riding as a group I tell them, "Don't worry about me, I know where we are going and will get there when I get there," and am always thinking "get there safely." Enjoying the ride is what it is all about for me! I love living and riding in the mountains of western NC. – Jennifer, aka Slowpoke (note from Mama: sage advice!) My husband and I just returned from a bike trip to North Georgia. In a two-day period, we rode 560 miles on our HD Fatboys. The most exciting was the "Tail of the Dragon" in North Carolina. What an incredible, intense and exciting experience. So very glad I was riding my own rather than sitting on the back (THAT would have been nerve wracking!) We also rode Deal's Gap, Ocoee and Look Out Mountain.. .Do not remember what I did before I got my bike (in May 2003). Just wanted to say your website does a great job of encouraging women to go out and do the same! Keep up the great work! – LR in PC (note from Mama: what fun, and thanks for the "atta girl" . . . my labor of love is my labor of/for life . . . over the 4 and 1/2 years I've been publishing this site I've had my moments where I was ready to chuck it, but boy, am I glad I didn't . . . I get soooo much for my efforts . . . I consider "making a difference" one of the highest goals and achievements of life!) Dear
VTwin Mama, I wanted to say to all the first time riders out there . . . check the local tech school for any courses they offer. Especially if you find the boyfriend's directives aggravating as hell. I took the 3 day course at Midlands Tech for $100, learned to corner (my problem) and went home and hopped on my Shadow VLX 600 like a pro. I was super confident compared to before. I learned things I never could have from the boyfriend even though he's been riding 15 years. That was 5 years ago and I now have a Suzuki C50 800 that is just perfect. I find the center of gravity on the the Intruder/Volusia/Boulevard series of bikes to be under your butt, not in the tank. I even ride the boyfriend's 1500 w/ no problem. I just couldn't afford it at the time. LOL. We've lowered it, added neon, and 15" bars, along w/ a host of other aftermarket parts. Everyone thinks it's bigger than his 1500 now. Great to see your site out there for all us chicks who love to ride. Keep safe, – Jess Dear
Jess, Ok, the Chrome Divas have a Columbia, SC chapter with their own site, events, etc. Although the other main national level clubs don't appear to have a chapter right in your city (I did a quickie check), that doesn't mean you can't locate the closest one and make contact. Check my Women's Sites page for the links. – Mama Dear
VTwin Mama, More and more, I am shying away from riding with any clubs/groups. I have tried several and all attempts have ended in complete failure because of two particular problems. First though, let me say, generally the riders are in my age group, between 45 and 60, riding Harley, Gold Wings, and Sportster type bikes. In other words we're not talking a group of youngsters on sport bikes. My problem is two fold; Every ride I have been on, with these various clubs/groups, has had the same outcomes; one, the "leader" rides too fast and two, doesn't pull over and wait for riders that get caught at a traffic light or stop sign. When I say too fast, understand this; Our country mountain roads make it easy to do 80mph in a 55 with little chance of getting a traffic ticket. It's the mountains for Christ sake . . . there are deer, turkey, skunks, dogs, kids, and even if those problems were not factored in, it's just not enjoyable (let alone legal) to go that fast . . . not for me. The other thing; and again this has happened every time, the ride leader just keeps on keeping on even tho the last half of the group did not make it through the stop sign or traffic light. So, there we are left with the choice of passing cars, at even higher speeds, to catch up or sucking our thumbs wondering, which way did they go??? And so, I ask you and your readers, WHAT is behind this? Ego? Ignorance? Small thing between the legs? Please, someone explain this ignorance to me. Better yet, just tell me how to get around it, past it, find safe, enjoyable riding groups. This may seem like an easy question, believe me it is not! I do question who ever is suppose to be in charge of a club/group before joining that ride. I get the same answer each time - It's always, "Oh yes, we ride the speed limit, we ride safe, bla bla bla." Then, an hour later I find myself doing 80/90 in a 55. (And don't ya love the accordion effect at those speeds) I am beside myself. More than all else, sick that I have allowed myself to be put in harms way, far to often, rather than pull out and go on my own. Petra, I'm a damn good rider (or I wouldn't be here to be writing this!) How can I find people to ride with that ride safe, the relaxed ride, for the company and laughs along the way? Rather then those that just want to race to the finish line? Quite frankly I'd rather eat a hotdog then continue to ride like one so how do I keep from becoming "the lone rider?" AND very important, it's not only that there is more fun in sharing the ride with others - it's flat out not safe for a woman to ride alone in some of these wilderness areas. All feedback welcome! Thanks, – Tina Dear
Tina, Yes, ride leaders come in many guises, and while ego and/or ignorance might be part of their "thing," the group just may have ridden together for so long and that's what they like. And they don't mind the catch-up thing, although I think this is truly nutsy, as it separates the group and lessens the presence on the road. My first question is this: in these groups you've been trying, do you feel you are the lone person with concerns? Are there others who you got the feeling would like a more "scenic" ride experience (enjoy the ride at moderated speeds, etc.)? If you felt there were others who would like a slower paced ride (i.e. not bat out of heck), then why not plan your own ride as the leader and give it a fun name like The Scenic Turtle Run or something like that! You are qualified to lead a run, so step up to the plate and do something! Even the fast riders would enjoy someone else finally putting something together (it takes a lot of thought, and they don't always want to have to be the one doing it). Keep the first one simple, well-planned, and demonstrate to yourself and others your abilities to do this! Depending on where you live in relation to the Sierras, you may also wish to contact local women's riding chapters (including the Ladies of Harley, who by the way, don't all ride Harleys!) nearest you and join them on a ride (although you may have to ride a bit to join their next one). Get a feel for it, and then again, plan your own ride invitational. In all of this I'm hoping you'll be able to build a list of like-minded women and men to share your vision. – Mama Tuesday, March 21 For Tina who has tried riding groups, but they are not to her liking (too fast, etc.): I ride frequently with my local HOG chapter and we always provide maps to all riders showing the route we will be taking and where our first stop will be. We have to ride through city traffic before we get out on the "back roads" and it would be absolutely impossible for the leader to stop and wait for the entire group to catch up after each signal. Our group usually is at least 20 bikes and it's just not possible for such a big group to make it through every signal. We also have another "leader" riding at the tail to be sure everyone is OK. Sounds like the group you've been riding with needs some instructions in how to be a group! Our club rides are ridden at the speed limit too. It's too bad your group doesn't know how to conduct itself! Petra's suggestion is great . . . start your own group that prefers to see the scenery at a safer pace! – Penny Price (note from Mama: good point on how a larger group can reform, and the role the "tailgunner," aka "back-end leader" plays.) From Tina herself: Thank you for your long, caring reply to my post!! Because of your reply I looked at the riding clubs section on your site and chose to contact the local Sacramento Chapter of WOW. I considered also what you asked; were there individuals in the various groups that I had tried riding with, that felt the way I did about riding the "balls to the wall" type ride and therefore might prefer to ride with me on the "Turtle" ride :-) But, the answer was "NO." Therefore I went with your second suggestion and received a wonderful warm reply from two gals of the Sac WOW Chapter. The part that got me was where they said, "I think you'll find us a very safe, fun loving bunch of women that have 2 things in common, we love to ride and we like to do it with other women. No pressure, no ego's, no "one ups manship" kind of stuff, just support, encouragement and riding." I'm attending there next meeting, which just happens to be tonight. Petra, you pointed me in the right direction and so I wanted to say, "I can't thank you enough for your time, trouble and care!" Fondest regards, – Tina (note from Mama: excellent and you are welcome! I'm going to point out that for many women, there isn't a chapter right in your town, but that doesn't mean you can't find and participate in a national level women's riding organization. Make contact, say hi, see if any of the members are in your area, and forge those connections! Also, for new riders, many of these chapters have minimum mileage requirements to participate on club rides, but they also add that new riders can attend a meeting, meet riders, and find a mentor to help them log miles to qualify for club rides. Make contact!) Thursday, March 23 More for Tina who has tried riding groups, but they are not to her liking (too fast, etc.): I’ve been riding for a year (still a semi-newbie) and have been on numerous group rides with my HOG chapter---day rides, over-night rides, and a 10-day, 3,000+ miles touring vacation. Safety is a priority on all group rides, which is all well and good, but making safety a priority isn’t the same as being safe. There are ways to be safe, both at a group level and personal level that have worked well for us. Here are a few thumbnails: In any group ride situation, yo-yoing is bound to happen sooner or later, and the larger the group, the worse it is. So, at the group level, each ride is broken into smaller sub-groups (“pods”) of maybe 5-10 bikes, including a lead and sweep for each of the sub-groups. The lead and sweep bikes are responsible for establishing safe navigation for their little pod. The lead and sweep bikes usually have CB radios and maintain contact regarding speed, traffic, road conditions, lights, lane changes, problems, etc. These smaller sub-groups are easier to get through traffic and there is less hurry-up-and-wait. All the pods eventually meet up at a predetermined destination.
Prior to the ride, less experienced riders are asked to take a position near the front of the pack, and this is where I prefer to be, frankly. Positions #2 and #3 are great spots because you are close to the pace bike and there is way less catching up to do. I just say that I’m more comfortable riding to the front of the group and I’ve never had a problem. However, if there is a very new group rider, I may be asked to take a position farther back or check with another group for a front position, in order to accommodate the newer rider, which is fine with me. This may be a solution for Tina . . . Bottom line, everyone has to ride their own ride, even in groups, but a bit of pre-planning and positioning can make all the difference between an enjoyable putt with your buddies or tearing down the road with your heart in your throat vowing never to do a group ride again! – Laurie, aka High Maintenance (note from Mama: good points on responsible group ride planning . . . it really is an art form, something not everyone understands IMHO, making the group less accessible by all riders. Still, not all groups give a rat's hoot about that, a sad commentary, but realistic.) I have decided that riding in large
groups is not to my taste, either. Last September my husband and I
attended the Oyster Run in Turns out it wasn’t me. I don’t remember the reference material I read this information from, so please bear with me – I won’t have all the facts & specifics complete with this comment – large groups of bikes are all affected by this. For groups of more than 5-6 bikes, additional road captains (leaders) and tail gunners (followers) should be appointed that also know the route and schedule. Riders in large groups should be aware that when the motorcycle in front speeds up, the one behind it speeds up proportionally to catch up, the one behind that a little more, etc., etc. The same goes for braking – when the lead bike brakes (unless it is done very gently) the response time for the bike behind is decreased – the one behind that loses more response time, and so on and so forth. There was a pile up in It makes me so uncomfortable to ride
in groups now that I either ride alone, with my husband, or with small
groups of less than 10. Even then, I try to ride near the front of
the pack. It isn’t just the response thing – it’s also having
to watch all the other riders around me as well as keeping an eye on other
traffic, road conditions, hazards, etc. At stops, I hear ‘did you
see that eagle’ or whatever and shake my head – I barely have time to
check my gauges, I certainly can’t sightsee! I would much rather
enjoy my ride, my way, at my speed. I join some WOW members for
rides occasionally – and they know that I will bow out of a ride that
gets large. Ride safe by riding your own ride. Take
care, everybody! Friday, March 24 Dear
VTwin Mama, Re: riding in large groups. I have gone on a couple poker runs with 40 or 50 bikers. The first one was great. The second one sucked, I hated it because they rode an average of 75 to 80mph, and real close together. I did finally drop back to the rear, didn't care to keep up, because when I ride, I like to enjoy the countryside too. Just looking straight ahead and going fast isn't how I personally like to ride. One time, I was way in the rear, went past a beautiful Victorian house, wanted to see it again, so left the group to go around the block again. (this is Iowa, our groups are real casual!). They laughed at me, but I had fun anyway. Of course, the town the house was in was very small, and no traffic. On that ride, a very experienced rider dumped his bike with his wife on the rear, hit some sand near a curb because they were riding too close. Luckily they weren't hurt, but the bike was. So anyway, sometimes it's more fun for us new riders to stick to small groups, or just a partner, to take it slow and enjoy the countryside. Can't wait to get out there again, this is the very best thing I have done for many years, is learn to ride! – Penney from Iowa Dear
Penney, All riding carries risk with it, whether solo or group. An excellent ride leader is worth their weight in gold, and as many have found out, they are not all created equal, and neither are the riders within the group. As we heard from Tina, even though a group says they don't speed, the follow-through isn't always there. And some riders just don't seem to understand the stagger/spacing part of the group formula. Just like we choose the bike we ride, we also choose the people we ride with. It does take experience to sort out, but as I've always said, riding a motorcycle is to understand that it is a life-long pursuit of knowledge. IMHO, that's part of the joy! – Mama Friday, June 9 Hi Petra, I want to tell you this to help reinforce what I already know this group is all about. Aware, safe riders. This is a reminder whether new rider or experienced, keep doing what you are doing, honing your skills, be aware of yourself, are you tired, are you alert, always scanning. I know most of you know this, but I will say it just in case, please read with positive thoughts and think what would you do to avoid or prevent this situation. This did NOT end badly, considering. I was fine and the other lady riders I was with were fine. Last Saturday I was riding with 6 people. 3 guys, 3 girls. I had not ridden with the 3 men before. At first I was riding in 4th position and paired myself up with a guy I felt was a very safe and strong rider who was riding in the 5th position. Our leader was going through yellow lights and wouldn't you know, 5th guy and I talked about it when we were stopped at a light. Which is ok, but keep in mind the full group and was this the best decision. We were in Saturday backed up traffic, so we diverted. I said go west and leader guy decided to go east. No problem, going out of our way is the point of motorcycling. He was lost, no problem, 5th guy caught up with leader guy and we changed to 5th guy and I rode 1st and second to get us to our destination. Leader guy moved to the 3rd spot. We enjoyed a great ride along more open roads. We were coming up to the intersection of 176 and Main. The light turned yellow and our new leader decided to slow down, it was a 30 mile an hour area and the 6 of us would not get through with the light already being yellow. There were people surrounding the intersection collecting donations of some kind. I saw him slow down and I did too. I cannot tell you exactly why, but I made a split decision to go through the light when I saw his bike move out of the corner of my eye and I saw what looked like his bike being carried into the center of the intersection. I KEPT MY EYES ON THE ROAD, told myself stay focused go through, pull over and then run back. As I was thinking this I heard a bike go down. I pulled over as soon as I could safely do so and hauled back to the intersection. Yes, you know what I am going to say. Previous leader guy wasn't looking, in a habit of running yellow lights and I was told he was riding too close. He went right through our leader and dragged both bikes into the intersection and both bikes went down. The men did not have helmets on and were extremely lucky. I was told the 3rd guy lost control and popped off the bike. I pulled over and ran back, checked on the people first then helped clear the bikes out of the intersection. The men were very lucky. The other riders had plenty of time to stop. They were alert and had plenty of space between them. The bikes in all seriousness were not in bad shape, considering. Bent crash bar (yikes, that was the 3rd guy, the part that went into the1st guys leg, ouch). Mostly broken tail lights and a bent fender. They called a flat bed truck instead of attempting to ride the bikes. Both Harley's, sturdy bikes for sure (don't worry, still love you my Yama). After the cops came, made sure everyone was ok, we sat down to lunch. I am not judging anyone here. I think this is important. The guy who was not alert and doing his own thing and ran through the light and hence the bike, did not have his M license. His comment was he knows how to ride. He is an extremely nice guy, not a bad rider, but could use some additional understanding. Accidents happen. He could have minimized the possibility of that accident happening. He said he knows how to ride a bike, why take the test. The 3 girls, of course we were all over him to take the MSF class and his test. I figured if he didn't want to hear it from a girl, at least take the test to get a discount on his insurance. Hoping that might speak to him. Long story long: 1) Be alert. Scan the road, the street light, is the
don't walk flashing yet? The leader is already checking this out for you,
but being aware yourself helps you anticipate what the leader might do so
you don't find yourself having to over react by the time you have to stop
or speed up, etc. I was the most fortunate in this. Even though the others did not really get hurt, the ones who witnessed the entire scene from behind I think had it tougher than me. I stayed calm and focused. I didn't have to witness someone popping off their bike or see the bikes colliding in full. All in all, this was not a bad accident AT ALL. But it could have been avoided. No one is perfect and not expected to be. You can minimize things like this by being aware. Thinking, what would you do in this situation, keep your calm, keep your eyes on the road, not the distraction. This was minor. Accidents do happen. Adding awareness and one rider at a time, we make a huge difference out there. Tuck this away as education and ride on!! – Sandra in Chicago Dear Sandra, I was pondering on the bike registration and insurance
process, and how this rider could have either, but concluded that one can
get insurance and then register a bike in order to get a plate, and never
show one's license. The only time a "M" comes into play is if
there is a problem. Hmmmm . . . . –
Mama Thursday, October 5 Hi Mama, Dear Jojo, Friday, October 13 Dear Mama, I learned one big lesson. Get to the
registration early because if you are first in line for the ride at the
beginning you are first in line for the FOOD at the end! Dear Susan, Dear Mama, Is this proper etiquette to leave someone like that? I know if I had a friend who was a newbie, I would never leave them alone on roads as deserted as these were. It was during the day and they did eventually pull over and wait, but I am thinking I would be better off riding solo if this is what I have to look forward to when I ride with a friend. Can you give me some thoughts on this? I never said anything, because I didn't want to sound like a total puss, but it was pretty scary out there alone.. If I'm going to be alone, I need to start getting used to it now. Thanks VTwin Mama! – Debbie M. Dear Debbie, Unfortunately, not all riding friends are created equal. This was more of a "let's let her tag along" ride than anything else. If they are offering to ride with you so that you get time on the road and some group experience, I'm hard pressed to say what it is they thought they were teaching you. To leave group members behind? Not good. I'm wondering if they weren't showing off a bit or in some twisted thought process, decided that you would learn more by trying to keep up with them. Most formal riding chapters require that a member have a full license and insurance. As you do not note which club this is, I would look for the closest chapters of women's riding organizations, attend a meeting, and say hi. While you probably can't ride with them right now, you may find that members would be willing to mentor you on an individual basis. So, expand your circle by visiting my Women's Sites page. There you will find all sorts of listings to help you move forward. It the two you went riding with are in fact from a local women's group, then I would either seek another group or get more solo time in, take the class, get your license, and then reconnect with the group. – Mama Thursday, April 10 For Debbie who didn't have a good road learning session with friends who left her behind: I used to ride with a person like that too. I had to make a serious decision: Do I want to keep hanging with her and get hurt or killed trying to keep up, or look for other friends to ride with or just go at it alone at my own pace. I also met another woman in my MFS class and she and her husband agreed to ride with me. I feel so comfortable now knowing I do not have to go 80 mph to keep up while still in the learning stages. So, Debbie, it's your choice. I had to do some serious soul searching on this matter. I am pleased that I did. I think you will be too. – Me & My Shadow (note from Mama: good advice from someone who has experienced this type of nonsense!) Monday, April 14 From Debbie who didn't have a good road learning session with friends who left her behind: Many thanks to VTwin Mama and “Me and my Shadow”
for the advice about whether to ride alone or with people who take off and
leave me. I have decided to go solo for awhile until after I take my MSF
course. I am actually looking forward to it now that I have made that
decision. I may have my daughter follow me in a chase car for awhile,
until I feel a little more comfortable. I know I can depend on her to not
leave me alone.
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